Thanks for the thoughtful response! I really appreciate you taking the time to engage with my questions. You made some great points that have given me food for thought.
I see you mentioned being a classical liberal with a strong focus on property rights, and I am as well. (Something in common—yay!)
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I really appreciate you taking the time to engage with my questions. You made some great points that have given me food for thought.
I see you mentioned being a classical liberal with a strong focus on property rights, and I am as well. (Something in common—yay!)
I agree that Palestinians, like everyone else, should have the right to property and should use legal avenues to address those injustices. However, I don’t think resorting to terrorism is the right path, as it just complicates the situation and undermines their legitimacy in the fight for self-determination.
That said, I realize I may be heavily influenced by Israeli propaganda, so I’ll definitely check out John Mearsheimer’s book. Thanks for the recommendation!
I would note that there are no LEGAL avenues for Palestinians to pursue their rights (property or otherwise) since they don’t live under Israeli civil authority but under an Israeli military rule. Moreover, the nature of the Zionist project (which requires the maintenance of ethno-religious majority of Jews) means that their inclusion in the civil political system of Israel will never be on the table. So the question becomes what are the choices available to them.
Live under a system that strips you of your basic rights and is guaranteed to continue in this vein for all future generations (because Zionism can’t allow the ethno-religious balance of the state to change) or try to get rid of that system? Given that the gate keeper barring the door for the acquisition of their basic rights is a powerful military, what mechanisms are available to them? Do you think most normal people would look their children and grandchildren in the eye and tell them that their futures are forfeit and they should simply accept that? Even if, as the overwhelming number of Palestinians do, choose to live in this hopeless indignity, would you not expect some small fraction of these millions to pursue violence.
A lot people would like to pretend that there is something exceptional in the feelings of most Palestinians and the choices being made by some. It seems to me, knowing all the Americans that I know, that there is nothing exceptional going on here. If you take a couple of million Americans and trap them in the state that Palestinians are in, do you think most would shrug their shoulders and say this is fine? Would you be surprised if some of them resort to whatever violence they can unleash on the state that denies them their rights by virtue of them not being Jewish?
The problem isn’t any individual or group. The problem is a political arrangement that guarantees a single outcome - violence. The choice is to support this ethnic-religious exclusionary arrangement (and all its unavoidable violent consequences) or you reject it. You can’t say you support slavery but be distraught that the slaves hate their masters.
You make it sound as though Israel left Palestinians with no other choice, but that’s not entirely accurate. Decades of diplomacy, including efforts like the Oslo Accords, have failed to achieve lasting progress on core issues such as borders, settlements, and the status of Jerusalem.
I also know that some Palestinian families have obtained Israeli citizenship and enjoy the same legal rights as Israeli citizens, such as owning property, pursuing education, practicing their religion, and building careers. Though it’s worth noting it’s not a perfect system and that many Palestinian citizens of Israel report facing social and institutional discrimination. And the West Bank and Gaza do not have these rights unless they are granted Israeli citizenship, which is extremely rare.
Wouldn’t a more effective solution be a process like Ireland’s eventual separation from the UK—gradually building trust and working toward independence over time? Of course, the challenges here are far more complex, but building trust seems like an essential step toward a sustainable resolution.
Many Palestinians already want to coexist peacefully. The primary challenge lies with those who have been radicalized and raised to view Israel with hatred and a desire for its destruction on a fundamental level. Since Israel is a permanent reality in the region, the only viable path forward is for both sides to accept that coexistence is necessary and work toward finding a way to live together.
Individual humans have a choice. Societies, within a political and economic context, have incentives and tendencies.
My question to you was essentially: what is the most reasonable expectation you have of a population of millions of people living under the conditions that the Palestinians are living under. It’s usually hard to do this because we’ve been trained to think in reductive tribal terms, this is why I asked you to imagine a bunch of Americans living under those conditions. Please try and do that, imagine millions of random Americans in those conditions for 60 years. If you tell me that you would expect that all those people would accept that they will be forever under the rule of a state that will never give them rights; that most of them won’t feel animosity towards that state; that none of them would be radicalized; that none of them would turn to revolt and violence… then this conversation would be settled.
I’m not trying to adjudicate “who” is to blame. I’m trying to determine “what” conditions cause conflict.
Thanks for the thoughtful response! I really appreciate you taking the time to engage with my questions. You made some great points that have given me food for thought.
I see you mentioned being a classical liberal with a strong focus on property rights, and I am as well. (Something in common—yay!)
I agree that Palestinians, like everyone else, should have the right to property and should use legal avenues to address those injustices. However, I don’t think resorting to terrorism is the right path, as it just complicates the situation and undermines their legitimacy in the fight for self-determination.
That said, I realize I may be heavily influenced by Israeli propaganda, so I’ll definitely check out John Mearsheimer’s book. Thanks for the recommendation!
I would note that there are no LEGAL avenues for Palestinians to pursue their rights (property or otherwise) since they don’t live under Israeli civil authority but under an Israeli military rule. Moreover, the nature of the Zionist project (which requires the maintenance of ethno-religious majority of Jews) means that their inclusion in the civil political system of Israel will never be on the table. So the question becomes what are the choices available to them.
Live under a system that strips you of your basic rights and is guaranteed to continue in this vein for all future generations (because Zionism can’t allow the ethno-religious balance of the state to change) or try to get rid of that system? Given that the gate keeper barring the door for the acquisition of their basic rights is a powerful military, what mechanisms are available to them? Do you think most normal people would look their children and grandchildren in the eye and tell them that their futures are forfeit and they should simply accept that? Even if, as the overwhelming number of Palestinians do, choose to live in this hopeless indignity, would you not expect some small fraction of these millions to pursue violence.
A lot people would like to pretend that there is something exceptional in the feelings of most Palestinians and the choices being made by some. It seems to me, knowing all the Americans that I know, that there is nothing exceptional going on here. If you take a couple of million Americans and trap them in the state that Palestinians are in, do you think most would shrug their shoulders and say this is fine? Would you be surprised if some of them resort to whatever violence they can unleash on the state that denies them their rights by virtue of them not being Jewish?
The problem isn’t any individual or group. The problem is a political arrangement that guarantees a single outcome - violence. The choice is to support this ethnic-religious exclusionary arrangement (and all its unavoidable violent consequences) or you reject it. You can’t say you support slavery but be distraught that the slaves hate their masters.
You make it sound as though Israel left Palestinians with no other choice, but that’s not entirely accurate. Decades of diplomacy, including efforts like the Oslo Accords, have failed to achieve lasting progress on core issues such as borders, settlements, and the status of Jerusalem.
I also know that some Palestinian families have obtained Israeli citizenship and enjoy the same legal rights as Israeli citizens, such as owning property, pursuing education, practicing their religion, and building careers. Though it’s worth noting it’s not a perfect system and that many Palestinian citizens of Israel report facing social and institutional discrimination. And the West Bank and Gaza do not have these rights unless they are granted Israeli citizenship, which is extremely rare.
Wouldn’t a more effective solution be a process like Ireland’s eventual separation from the UK—gradually building trust and working toward independence over time? Of course, the challenges here are far more complex, but building trust seems like an essential step toward a sustainable resolution.
Many Palestinians already want to coexist peacefully. The primary challenge lies with those who have been radicalized and raised to view Israel with hatred and a desire for its destruction on a fundamental level. Since Israel is a permanent reality in the region, the only viable path forward is for both sides to accept that coexistence is necessary and work toward finding a way to live together.
Individual humans have a choice. Societies, within a political and economic context, have incentives and tendencies.
My question to you was essentially: what is the most reasonable expectation you have of a population of millions of people living under the conditions that the Palestinians are living under. It’s usually hard to do this because we’ve been trained to think in reductive tribal terms, this is why I asked you to imagine a bunch of Americans living under those conditions. Please try and do that, imagine millions of random Americans in those conditions for 60 years. If you tell me that you would expect that all those people would accept that they will be forever under the rule of a state that will never give them rights; that most of them won’t feel animosity towards that state; that none of them would be radicalized; that none of them would turn to revolt and violence… then this conversation would be settled.
I’m not trying to adjudicate “who” is to blame. I’m trying to determine “what” conditions cause conflict.