Also, I still say Am Yisrael Chai! 🇮🇱 and Long Live Palestine! 🇵🇸 But at the same time, I think it important to say blessed are the peace makers be they Zionist or Antizionist and Israeli, Palestinian or otherwise. I want to make it crystal clear, this includes Jake and Salome.
I agree and thank you 🙏 Highlighting the peace-makers on either side of the issue is exactly what we need more of. Thank you for emphasizing this, as it so often gets lost in the heat.
I have given it much thought and I now realize my previous comment was totally wrong, rude and attacking Salome and Jake for no reason. I wanted to sincerely apologize to you both for my previous response. You guys weren’t smug, condescending or talking down to the viewers. From having given the video a second watch, I now realize I completely misinterpreted and misjudged you both. You were none of things described above you were rather understandably frustrated and angry that you at times were treated very poorly at the debate, talked over, told to shut up, and Eli Lake treated Jake with gross disrespect. The cheering for the deaths of innocent people was disgusting. That is NEVER okay be they Israelis or Palestinians! You guys don’t hate Israel at all. You guys just want whats best for all in the region and you see Zionism as not conducive to that or to long-term peace, and has led to the mass suffering and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Also, Eli Lake did behave badly at times during the debate. The debate also should’ve had a better and more objective moderator. Konstantin has always made his position on the war clear and he was too bias for that job. Steven Pinker or Jonathan Haidt would’ve been a much better choice or someone from a nonpartisan organization dedicated to dialogue across partisan lines like Braver Angels, BridegeUSA or Unify America. I want to clarify that what I meant by “not taking one side of the other.” was not that you shouldn’t take a position but that that position should be nuanced. But I came to realize giving the video a second watch that you guys did take a nuanced position but nuanced in a different way. Also, after throughly reading Salome’s response I also now realize that I accused you guys of having sinister motives when you did not. I was not trying to be immature or emotionally manipulative but after reading my comment back I definitely sounded that way. I wasn’t trying to not be truthful but I definitely accused you guys of doing things you didn’t do, made assumptions that were absolutely wrong, hurtful and untrue and while I didn’t mean to be irrational, I was. I may have a different understanding of the history of the conflict and don’t see Zionism as harmful (but certain types of it most certainly are), I meant what I said that I respect you both. Also, to address what someone said in the comment section, Jake is not a “token Jew” that’s antisemitic in of itself and the same as calling a black conservative an “Uncle Tom.” ALL Jews be they Zionist or Antizionist are REAL Jews and a legitimate part of the community. I won’t stand for such bigotry against anyone of any political ideology! I believe the whole thing was framed woefully incorrectly from the very beginning. It should’ve been a roundtable discussion NOT a debate. Their should’ve been NO winners or losers! It’s not a contest, it should’ve been used as an opportunity to build bridges and create empathy and understanding. Dissident Dialogues fumbled the ball big time! Scratch that, they fumbled the ball, kicked the quarterback in the groin and vomited all over the stadium. It was a total disaster. Some of these comments are simply beyond the pale. I apologize once again to Salome and Jake and I hope they can forgive me. I should’ve watched the video with an open mind, not made assumptions and not made snap judgements.
Wow Noah, you are truly a rare human indeed. Thank you for this. Thank you. I have always thought your comments, even when we disagree, were respectful and rational. I continue to believe that.
Thank you for being able to transcend the heat of this issue. It's hard for all of us, including me. Some people take this issue as an excuse to treat others with disrespect that they would likely never do in person and I can't tell you how disappointing and difficult it is to face. Jake and I try really hard to push back on this behavior and redirect our disagreements to the issue itself and I know you value that as I've seen you do that yourself. I wish more people could understand that we may disagree how to achieve it, but most of us genuinely want to see peace and safety for all innocent people. Please send me a DM on Instagram if you'd like, I'd like to talk to you more personally.
Your comment is the epitome of what I want for The Black Sheep. Thank you for doing the incredibly rare thing of being willing to see us charitably.
You're giving more than they give. Salome has been acting incredibly defensive and smug through the comments and socials. Not saying they're wrong, but they're never going to give anything the other side of this argument says even the time of day! I've listened to Moynihan long enough to know he's not usually talking out of his ass. He's also honest about Islam and the problems of Islam. Which are LEGION! Islam is just Mormonism (did you know there's a part three to the bible?) but with a few hundred more years and a lot of muslim colonialism behind it.
Funny, you'd have no problem if the ideology being pointed out was "leftist" instead of "zionist", but just like leftists do, you take the naming of your own ideology as an insult.
Don't insult people like the commentator I was responding to did and people won't be inclined to highlight how your ideology constantly correlates with aggressive behavior.
Jake Klein lied about the 1967 Six Day War, claiming Israel launched it - that requires both mental gymnastics and some artful deception. First thing, Israel only attacked Egypt on June 5th, after warning that Egypt blockading the Red Sea entrance to Israel (by closing the Strait of Tiran) is an act of war. So it was Egypt that started the war. Next, Israel warned Jordan’s King Hussein to stay out of the war, yet his forces shelled Israel, damaging 900 houses, killing 20 and wounding 1000. So in this case Jordan started the war that ended with Israel conquering the occupied Judea and Samaria area back from Jordan (an area Jordan ethnically cleansed of 40,000 Jews in 1948, and that was never Jordanian territory before). Lastly, Syria did not get attacked by Israel until it shelled Israeli towns in the lower Galilee and Jordan Valley. Syria lost the Golan Heights after starting a war.
So the question is really why would Jake sell a propaganda lie about the 1967 Six Dat war? I doubt he’s ignorant on the facts.
As I go over in the video, the Strait of Tiran is a naval passage between Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The closure was intended to be part of an economic boycott. The first shots were fired unambiguously by Israel. Yes, Israel declared the Strait’s closure an act of war. I could declare your comment an act of war if I wanted to. Declaring something doesn’t make it so.
Everyone already understands that Israel and Hamas were in a state of war before October 7. Hence people say there was a “ceasefire” on October 6. Just like with Russia and Ukraine.
I don’t think the side that fires the first shot is necessarily wrong. Or necessarily right.
It doesn’t load for me. And this is one guy. I don’t know who he is or anything else. Dersh is also from Harvard law and agrees with me.
I don’t know what implications you would mean. Hamas and Israel were already in a state of war before October 7, yes. There was a ceasefire but still a state of war, yes. October 7 was a genocidal terroristic war crime. Russia and Ukraine were already in a state of war before February 22. It’s not like they signed a peace treaty before February 22.
You could also declare yourself something other than an anti-Israel propagandist, but that doesn’t change that you are. Notice how you avoided the fact that both Jordan and Syria fired first on Israeli citizens inside Israel proper before they got attacked. I wonder why you avoided those facts completely, Jake?
Because it’s not part of the question of who started the Six Day war and thus wasn’t what came up in the debate. You’re moving the goal posts to try to win some other debate from the one that was being had. If you want to say Jordan and Syria shouldn’t have been allied with Egypt, fine, make that argument. It’s not a question I’ve yet considered deeply. But I’m not a liar and I’m not a propagandist, you’re just experiencing cognitive dissonance and lashing out aggressively because of it. You might benefit from this other article of mine: https://www.wetheblacksheep.com/p/what-brings-you-meaning-in-life-is
Wait, your apologia for Jordan and Syria shelling Israeli civilians is “Israel attacked Egypt”? Ridiculous. I don’t need lectures from a token Jew of anti-Jewish racists, but thanks for the link.
Read it again. There wasn’t an apologia in there. WW1 started with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and the Six Day War started with Israel attacking Egypt. That’s just the way it is, and you can have whatever thoughts about what happened in each war after that, but you can’t talk those facts away. If that truth makes you unable to control your anger, go express it somewhere else.
Anger? I’m sitting by a pool reading your mental contortions for my entertainment. You can’t have it both ways, Jake. If Israel started a war against Egypt by “shooting first”, as you claimed (let’s ignore that they promised to illegally shoot at any Israeli ship transporting the Starit of Tiran), then both Jordan and Syria started their war against Israel by shooting first. Your weird alliance argument violates your own logic, but I get it, you have an anti-Israel line to sell, always.
You're deranged. Make factual, respectful arguments or I will block you.
Notice how you're the one who needs to invent a weird conspiracy about how anyone who disagrees with you is some malicious propagandist. If you yourself were driven by facts instead of tribal derangement, you would stick to facts.
I did stick to the facts - Jordan and Syria attacked Israel in June 1967, and a result of that belligerence ended up losing Judea and Samaria and the Golan Heights in the subsequent war. What you and Jake Klein are doing is twisting facts to come out with an anti-Israel result. That’s propaganda.
Nobody except immature adults who think a conflict where innocent people have been killed could see a debate on it as something where speakers get "beaten." Grow up and treat this issue with the respect and seriousness it warrants.
The original debate is included in the video. However, it’s not about winning and losing. It’s about educating the public on all the misconceptions we’ve heard for decades.
Please refrain from commenting on content if you can't be truthful or rational. The Black Sheep has never been about taking no position on anything. And what could be more black sheep than being rightwing and opposing Zionism?
Please stop with the emotionally manipulative language: no one "hates Israel", such a concept is childish. This has nothing to do with hating an entire country, I don't even know what that entails. We're criticizing a specific ideology that harms both Israelis and Palestinians by causing unnecessary conflict.
I'm tired of such immaturity being brought to this issue. Zionism is an ideology, not a race. Criticizing Zionism is like criticizing any other form of identity politics. The fact that you take issue with the settlements and Netanyahu is largely because of the Revisionist Zionist ideology he pursues that seeks to continually maximize Israel's territory.
Also, it's absurd that you would accuse us of being "condescending and smug", when we focus on the facts and discuss everything in a tempered manner. This just confirms how emotionally driven you are in your response. If there's ANY criticism that can't be made of us, it's that we don't seek to elevate this conversation by keeping it focused on logical arguments, facts, and humanizing all the innocent people involved.
The incoherence of your position is well represented by slapping two slogans on the ending while demonizing us for discussing just exactly what's required to have a free Palestine AND Israel.
Also, I still say Am Yisrael Chai! 🇮🇱 and Long Live Palestine! 🇵🇸 But at the same time, I think it important to say blessed are the peace makers be they Zionist or Antizionist and Israeli, Palestinian or otherwise. I want to make it crystal clear, this includes Jake and Salome.
I agree and thank you 🙏 Highlighting the peace-makers on either side of the issue is exactly what we need more of. Thank you for emphasizing this, as it so often gets lost in the heat.
I have given it much thought and I now realize my previous comment was totally wrong, rude and attacking Salome and Jake for no reason. I wanted to sincerely apologize to you both for my previous response. You guys weren’t smug, condescending or talking down to the viewers. From having given the video a second watch, I now realize I completely misinterpreted and misjudged you both. You were none of things described above you were rather understandably frustrated and angry that you at times were treated very poorly at the debate, talked over, told to shut up, and Eli Lake treated Jake with gross disrespect. The cheering for the deaths of innocent people was disgusting. That is NEVER okay be they Israelis or Palestinians! You guys don’t hate Israel at all. You guys just want whats best for all in the region and you see Zionism as not conducive to that or to long-term peace, and has led to the mass suffering and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Also, Eli Lake did behave badly at times during the debate. The debate also should’ve had a better and more objective moderator. Konstantin has always made his position on the war clear and he was too bias for that job. Steven Pinker or Jonathan Haidt would’ve been a much better choice or someone from a nonpartisan organization dedicated to dialogue across partisan lines like Braver Angels, BridegeUSA or Unify America. I want to clarify that what I meant by “not taking one side of the other.” was not that you shouldn’t take a position but that that position should be nuanced. But I came to realize giving the video a second watch that you guys did take a nuanced position but nuanced in a different way. Also, after throughly reading Salome’s response I also now realize that I accused you guys of having sinister motives when you did not. I was not trying to be immature or emotionally manipulative but after reading my comment back I definitely sounded that way. I wasn’t trying to not be truthful but I definitely accused you guys of doing things you didn’t do, made assumptions that were absolutely wrong, hurtful and untrue and while I didn’t mean to be irrational, I was. I may have a different understanding of the history of the conflict and don’t see Zionism as harmful (but certain types of it most certainly are), I meant what I said that I respect you both. Also, to address what someone said in the comment section, Jake is not a “token Jew” that’s antisemitic in of itself and the same as calling a black conservative an “Uncle Tom.” ALL Jews be they Zionist or Antizionist are REAL Jews and a legitimate part of the community. I won’t stand for such bigotry against anyone of any political ideology! I believe the whole thing was framed woefully incorrectly from the very beginning. It should’ve been a roundtable discussion NOT a debate. Their should’ve been NO winners or losers! It’s not a contest, it should’ve been used as an opportunity to build bridges and create empathy and understanding. Dissident Dialogues fumbled the ball big time! Scratch that, they fumbled the ball, kicked the quarterback in the groin and vomited all over the stadium. It was a total disaster. Some of these comments are simply beyond the pale. I apologize once again to Salome and Jake and I hope they can forgive me. I should’ve watched the video with an open mind, not made assumptions and not made snap judgements.
Wow, thank you Noah. This is a truly rare reversal and I appreciate it very much very. Glad to have you as a viewer :)
Wow Noah, you are truly a rare human indeed. Thank you for this. Thank you. I have always thought your comments, even when we disagree, were respectful and rational. I continue to believe that.
Thank you for being able to transcend the heat of this issue. It's hard for all of us, including me. Some people take this issue as an excuse to treat others with disrespect that they would likely never do in person and I can't tell you how disappointing and difficult it is to face. Jake and I try really hard to push back on this behavior and redirect our disagreements to the issue itself and I know you value that as I've seen you do that yourself. I wish more people could understand that we may disagree how to achieve it, but most of us genuinely want to see peace and safety for all innocent people. Please send me a DM on Instagram if you'd like, I'd like to talk to you more personally.
Your comment is the epitome of what I want for The Black Sheep. Thank you for doing the incredibly rare thing of being willing to see us charitably.
You're giving more than they give. Salome has been acting incredibly defensive and smug through the comments and socials. Not saying they're wrong, but they're never going to give anything the other side of this argument says even the time of day! I've listened to Moynihan long enough to know he's not usually talking out of his ass. He's also honest about Islam and the problems of Islam. Which are LEGION! Islam is just Mormonism (did you know there's a part three to the bible?) but with a few hundred more years and a lot of muslim colonialism behind it.
Please just stop. Let a good interaction between two people happen. This isn't helpful.
that being said I would have stopped 2 hours ago had klein not been a bitch. If you don't like being called dishonest jake... take up honesty! :)
"You're blocked. Another Zionist that can't restrain themselves from insulting anyone who questions them." - but this is?
I learned it from watching you dad!
Funny, you'd have no problem if the ideology being pointed out was "leftist" instead of "zionist", but just like leftists do, you take the naming of your own ideology as an insult.
Don't insult people like the commentator I was responding to did and people won't be inclined to highlight how your ideology constantly correlates with aggressive behavior.
Jake Klein lied about the 1967 Six Day War, claiming Israel launched it - that requires both mental gymnastics and some artful deception. First thing, Israel only attacked Egypt on June 5th, after warning that Egypt blockading the Red Sea entrance to Israel (by closing the Strait of Tiran) is an act of war. So it was Egypt that started the war. Next, Israel warned Jordan’s King Hussein to stay out of the war, yet his forces shelled Israel, damaging 900 houses, killing 20 and wounding 1000. So in this case Jordan started the war that ended with Israel conquering the occupied Judea and Samaria area back from Jordan (an area Jordan ethnically cleansed of 40,000 Jews in 1948, and that was never Jordanian territory before). Lastly, Syria did not get attacked by Israel until it shelled Israeli towns in the lower Galilee and Jordan Valley. Syria lost the Golan Heights after starting a war.
So the question is really why would Jake sell a propaganda lie about the 1967 Six Dat war? I doubt he’s ignorant on the facts.
As I go over in the video, the Strait of Tiran is a naval passage between Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The closure was intended to be part of an economic boycott. The first shots were fired unambiguously by Israel. Yes, Israel declared the Strait’s closure an act of war. I could declare your comment an act of war if I wanted to. Declaring something doesn’t make it so.
The difference is that Doctors Without Borders and Britannia encyclopedia don’t define Internet comments to be acts of war.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/blockade-warfare
Here’s legal analysis from the time from a Harvard University lawyer specializing in international law: https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1967/06/11/issue.html
His take away is that the legal case for Egypt’s right to the blockade was stronger than Israel’s legal case to the contrary.
As an aside, I’d keep in mind the implications calling a blockade casus belli for war has for Gaza prior to October 7th.
Everyone already understands that Israel and Hamas were in a state of war before October 7. Hence people say there was a “ceasefire” on October 6. Just like with Russia and Ukraine.
I don’t think the side that fires the first shot is necessarily wrong. Or necessarily right.
It doesn’t load for me. And this is one guy. I don’t know who he is or anything else. Dersh is also from Harvard law and agrees with me.
I don’t know what implications you would mean. Hamas and Israel were already in a state of war before October 7, yes. There was a ceasefire but still a state of war, yes. October 7 was a genocidal terroristic war crime. Russia and Ukraine were already in a state of war before February 22. It’s not like they signed a peace treaty before February 22.
https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/blockade/
“A blockade is an act of war”
You could also declare yourself something other than an anti-Israel propagandist, but that doesn’t change that you are. Notice how you avoided the fact that both Jordan and Syria fired first on Israeli citizens inside Israel proper before they got attacked. I wonder why you avoided those facts completely, Jake?
Because it’s not part of the question of who started the Six Day war and thus wasn’t what came up in the debate. You’re moving the goal posts to try to win some other debate from the one that was being had. If you want to say Jordan and Syria shouldn’t have been allied with Egypt, fine, make that argument. It’s not a question I’ve yet considered deeply. But I’m not a liar and I’m not a propagandist, you’re just experiencing cognitive dissonance and lashing out aggressively because of it. You might benefit from this other article of mine: https://www.wetheblacksheep.com/p/what-brings-you-meaning-in-life-is
Wait, your apologia for Jordan and Syria shelling Israeli civilians is “Israel attacked Egypt”? Ridiculous. I don’t need lectures from a token Jew of anti-Jewish racists, but thanks for the link.
Read it again. There wasn’t an apologia in there. WW1 started with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and the Six Day War started with Israel attacking Egypt. That’s just the way it is, and you can have whatever thoughts about what happened in each war after that, but you can’t talk those facts away. If that truth makes you unable to control your anger, go express it somewhere else.
Anger? I’m sitting by a pool reading your mental contortions for my entertainment. You can’t have it both ways, Jake. If Israel started a war against Egypt by “shooting first”, as you claimed (let’s ignore that they promised to illegally shoot at any Israeli ship transporting the Starit of Tiran), then both Jordan and Syria started their war against Israel by shooting first. Your weird alliance argument violates your own logic, but I get it, you have an anti-Israel line to sell, always.
You're blocked. Another Zionist that can't restrain themselves from insulting anyone who questions them.
You're deranged. Make factual, respectful arguments or I will block you.
Notice how you're the one who needs to invent a weird conspiracy about how anyone who disagrees with you is some malicious propagandist. If you yourself were driven by facts instead of tribal derangement, you would stick to facts.
I did stick to the facts - Jordan and Syria attacked Israel in June 1967, and a result of that belligerence ended up losing Judea and Samaria and the Golan Heights in the subsequent war. What you and Jake Klein are doing is twisting facts to come out with an anti-Israel result. That’s propaganda.
Oh, I wasn t aware of the debate. I need to watch it. I assume the video is posted on your page. If not, please let me know where.
You can watch it through the response video! We play the whole thing throughout our commentary. Enjoy and thanks for checking it out!
You can find it on YouTube on the Dissident Dialogues channel — “FIERY Israel Debate — Konstantin Kisin…”
Thanks for making this issue clear.
Just watch the original debate. Klein and BrieBrieJoy got beaten badly.
Nobody except immature adults who think a conflict where innocent people have been killed could see a debate on it as something where speakers get "beaten." Grow up and treat this issue with the respect and seriousness it warrants.
The original debate is included in the video. However, it’s not about winning and losing. It’s about educating the public on all the misconceptions we’ve heard for decades.
Thank you, I appreciate how mature and educated your response is!
Thank you :)
Please refrain from commenting on content if you can't be truthful or rational. The Black Sheep has never been about taking no position on anything. And what could be more black sheep than being rightwing and opposing Zionism?
Please stop with the emotionally manipulative language: no one "hates Israel", such a concept is childish. This has nothing to do with hating an entire country, I don't even know what that entails. We're criticizing a specific ideology that harms both Israelis and Palestinians by causing unnecessary conflict.
I'm tired of such immaturity being brought to this issue. Zionism is an ideology, not a race. Criticizing Zionism is like criticizing any other form of identity politics. The fact that you take issue with the settlements and Netanyahu is largely because of the Revisionist Zionist ideology he pursues that seeks to continually maximize Israel's territory.
Also, it's absurd that you would accuse us of being "condescending and smug", when we focus on the facts and discuss everything in a tempered manner. This just confirms how emotionally driven you are in your response. If there's ANY criticism that can't be made of us, it's that we don't seek to elevate this conversation by keeping it focused on logical arguments, facts, and humanizing all the innocent people involved.
The incoherence of your position is well represented by slapping two slogans on the ending while demonizing us for discussing just exactly what's required to have a free Palestine AND Israel.